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SyntheticShield
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| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Fri Jun 23rd, 2006 02:44 pm |
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I guess that anyone that knows me here knows that I am a little fanatical about tracking my fuel mileage. I go as far as to write down trip mileage and odometer mileage on each fuel reciept, then I enter that information on my laptop at home in my auto maintenance software and then the reciepts get put in an envelope and stuck into a shoe box along with all the other reciepts I keep.
Some of you may recall that a few months before I traded in my Focus I had an engine fire caused by the EGR tube. It cost me my starter and some of the wiring from the starter to the battery and alternator. I took the opportunity to upgrade the wiring making the starter wire and ground 1/0 Awg wiring and 4 awg from the alternator to the battery.
I remember reporting that a few improvements came of that. Performance 'seemed' better, it definately started better and I also so a fuel mileage increase.
This has intrigued me since. In face when I bought the Grand Prix one of the very first things I did was upgrade all the wiring. Several grounds, the starter wiring, charging and so forth. Unfortunately I didnt have the Grand Prix long enough at that point to say yes, doing this again helped mileage. I was tracking mileage but had only a few weeks of history at the time I re-did the wiring and to complicate it I was a rather giddy driver when I first got the car and to say I was a spirited driver would be an understatement.
Well I started looking into this again and ran across some extremely interesting methods for increasing the overal voltage of the electrical system. Primarily due to the fact that as you modify the Grand Prix, with its unique fuel pump, you'll find that subtle increases in electrical voltage will extend the horsepower that the fuel pump can support.
Most of the modifications involved upgrading grounds, starter and alternator wires and fuel pump circuitry to larger wiring. Perfectly understandable as larger wiring with higher strand counts will reduce resistance and thus current and voltage lost due to the wiring. In this areana tenths of a volt can make a difference.
Well I'll ran across a method in making a rather huge jump in voltage, at least in terms of an automotive elelctrical system its a huge jump. Well I perform this modification more so for the incresed brightness of the lights and workings of the stereo system, windows, etc. My power levels thus far are not near the limit of the fuel pump or injectors, and at the time I wasnt thinking of any mileage increases. It had crossed my mind but wasnt the main reason for doing this.
Typically speaking, combined city and highway driving I usually get around 24 - 25 mpg. All highway I'll get 31.5 and all city will be in the lower 20's if I have my foot in it alot. On the highway I'll drive between 70 - 75 and it consists of about 25 miles of highway and 8 - 10 miles of city driving depending on which way I take to get home. The city driving is horrible because there are a ton of traffic lights in this town. In fact, in one stretch that is about a mile long there are 5, 5 friggin traffic lights. So the city driving I do will bring down my overall mileage in a hurry typically.
I have a Digital Information Center that shows me several pieces of information. The one I watch most is gallons consumed and fuel mileage. The fuel mileage indicator is an overall mileage. The newer Grand Prixs have an instant and overall reading. Nonetheless I figured out how to get a good instant reading.
My gallons of fuel consumed reading increments in tenths. It will go 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 and so on. I realized that I could watch the number of miles I drove in one tenth of a gallon of fuel consumed and get a relatively real time reading on my fuel mileage. In other words, I note the odometer reading when the fuel consumption indication increments to 1.0 gallons, then I note the odometer again when it increments to 1.1. Take the miles I have drove and multiply by 10 and I have real time fuel mileage. So if I drove 2.8 miles then I would be getting 28mpg in that tenth of a mile.
I know this is a long post, bare with me.
Previous to installing the modification to my electrical system, I would usually see numbers between 2.3 - 3.2 depending on whether or not I was going up and down hills (lots of them on my drive to and from work) or on flat road. That means that live fuel mileage would be 23 - 32 mpg depending on the terrain.
My overall fuel mileage indication on the information center stayed pretty much between 24.2 - 24.5 which was pretty close to what I was seeing in my calculations.
After installing the modification it was almost immediately apparent mileage was going up. I can normally go about 375 - 400 miles on a tank of gas and I can drive all week on that needing to fill up on Fridays. when I get home. As of today I have 405 miles on my tank and I just this morning slipped a half tick below the 1/4 tank mark so by the time I get home this afternoon I'll have close to 450 miles on this tank and could probably turn around and make one more trip to work.
In monitoring the live fuel mileage I have been getting 2.9 or so miles per tenth of gas consumed and on flat terrain I have went as much as 4.5 miles. My overall fuel mileage indicator has went to 24.2 to 26.1 as of this morning and is still climbing. If the highway mileage stays consistent I should be able to easily hit 34 - 35 mpg all highway in a supercharged V6. Im still monitoring, but it is clearly evident that my mileage has went up and it seems that my mileage is going to see about a 2 - 3 mpg increase. Nothing to sneeze at for as inexpensive and easy this modification was to do. So how much did I increase the system voltage to get this? A mere 0.6Vdc. My idle voltage was about 13.9 Vdc, after doing the modification my voltage went to 14.5 - 14.6 Vdc. Now, you may be thinking why not go higher. The simple explanation would be that you risk sending the electronics into auto shutdown. Some stereos and such will turn themselves off past 15 Vdc to prevent overload, and your engine computer is likely set to shut off at about 15 - 15.5 Vdc. There is some leeway, but you dont want to push it much closer to 15Vdc. In this case more is not necessarily going to be better.
What I have to figure out is if this is unique to this particular car, model of car or if I can replicate it on other models. Im working now in trying to try this out on some other vehicles where I know the owner tracks fuel mileage as closely as I do. As well I have a couple of local customers that drive a Focus and Im going to see if they see any improvements once I get everything together to make a kit that is fool proof to install.
I have long held the believe you can improve performance and not suffer any fuel mileage hit. Think about that for a minute. If you reduce friction, for instance, what happens? Well if there is less resistance to engine movement then it takes less power to travel at the same speed. If it takes less power, then that means it takes less fuel and thus you get a mileage increase and a performance increase.
Hopefully this will be a different approach to that. Not necessarily a performance modification but as stretched as modern automotive electrical systems are, every little bit of enhancement will help. Your fuel injectors, fuel pump, sensors all need a reliable source of voltage and current to opperate. Not to mention your ignition system which is severely strained if you do WOT runs.
I'll try and keep things updated as I gather more information. Though, even if the fuel mileage did not remain, I would still do this to help out the electrical system as my power windows and sunroof operate better and my lights are definately a little brighter. I think this modification coupled with a capacitor to filter and stabilize the electrical system would be a wonderful combination.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Sat Jun 24th, 2006 07:09 pm |
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Well I held off on being specific because if I can, I am going to create a device that will duplicate the modification and test it on some other vehicles. If the results hold up, then I'll see if I can market it in some way. But dont worry, it will be extremely inexpensive, particularly if the results prove to be consistent over several different vehicles.
Now, that said, here is my fuel mileage over the last month. Keep in mind I do a considerable amount of driving and it is combined driving (both highway and city, approx. 60/40) I get about 31.5 on the highway the last time I did an all highway run.
06.02.2006
Miles on tank: 384.4
Gallons to fill up: 17.294
Mileage: 22.23 mpg
06.04.2006
Miles on tank: 150.6
Gallons to fill up: 7.622
Mileage: 19.76
(a great deal more city and sprited driving on this weekend)
06.09.2006
Miles On Tank: 361.1
Gallons to fill up: 15.0
Mileage: 24.07 mpg
06.16.2006
Miles On Tank: 408.9
Gallons to fill up: 17.70
Mileage: 23.10 mpg
06.19.2006
Miles On Tank: 217.8
Gallons to fill up: 9.391
Mileage: 23.19 mpg
(typically if I fill up on Friday and have to do more than usual driving on the weekend I'll top it off on Monday on my way to work)
06.24.2006
Miles On Tank: 446.0
Gallons to fill up: 17.00
Mileage: 26.24 mpg
(First tank using the increased system voltage)
So there you go. Im usually between 23 - 24 mpg combined driving and this week I hit 26.24. Thats 3mpg over my last tank and about 2.25mpg more than my best tank for the month.
Last edited on Sat Jun 24th, 2006 07:12 pm by SyntheticShield
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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tekslilbrat
TF Family Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Western Part Of, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 351 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 ZX3 S2 ... | | Occupation: | What is a job??? I used to work..... | | Interests: | School, snowmobiling, cars, trucks, NASCAR, Football, my kids | | Male/Female: | Female |
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Posted: Sun Jun 25th, 2006 12:10 am |
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Its sounds like it is not that he won't tell us, its that he wants to do some research to see if it is just his car or if it will work on all cars. My take is in due time we all should just be patient. 
Good Luck witht it Synthetic and let us in as soon as you can!!! I'm dying to hear the results. 
Last edited on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 12:11 am by tekslilbrat
____________________
Lovin' My ZX3!!!! I finally gave it a name
SMKNS2!!!! 
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Sun Jun 25th, 2006 03:42 am |
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You nailed it. I want to hold off on details until I know more. There are a couple of avenues I want to take here.
1. I want to test this further on my car and a few others.
2. I want to get a source for the connectors I need so that its a plug and play deal, that way if you want to go back to stock you can. I want to try and avoid anyone having to cut wires or anything like that if possible.
3. If it pans out, and this does effect mileage and the results can be replicated reliably then I would like to try and market this. Depending on the price of the connectors, we would most likely be looking at a cost of less than $20 probably more around $15. If my 3mpg increase continues then that $20 is recouped in a matter of just a months worth of driving.
Then again I may just throw out the information for everyone to enjoy. If my mileage stays up this coming week, I may bump the voltage up to 15Vdc (about the max I want to go with the electronics) and see if there is anymore gain to be had.
I know for fact my electrical system, including the engine computer will shut down on anything over 17Vdc. I know this because I watched my voltage output go there. But where between 15 - 17Vdc the exact shut off is I do not know, I just know it wont support over 17Vdc.
Furthermore, if fuel mileage increase are to be had by increasing the system voltage, then what can I gain by filtering the electrical signal? Removing transient signals, noise, etc. If I purify the DC output, will that help in anyway? These are things I want to find out before putting too much info out there. My Focus got around 27 - 28 combined driving and I am dang near that now if I can sustain this with more than twice the power and torque, I think there is something inherently good about that.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Fri Jun 30th, 2006 11:56 pm |
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Here is the lastest mileage update, I didnt need to fill up as according to the gauge I still had about a 1/4 tank left. I have to make a short roadtrip tomorrow that will be about 80 miles all together but I figured I would go ahead an fill up today as I was just too anxious to see what the results would be.
06.30.2006
Miles on Tank: 410.8
Gallons to fill up: 14.80
Mileage: 27.75 mpg
I have a 4 day weekend so I may not end up doing as much driving this coming week, we shall see.
This is combined driving which is about 65 - 70% highway and 30 - 35% city and will vary sometime, typically more city driving. Im eager to get out and do an all highway drive. I know with a 1/4 tank left I could have made another round trip to work which is right at 70 miles all together, city and highway, so that would have put me pretty darn near 500 miles on the tank which I have never been able to do other than on all highway runs.
Average mileage before: 22.47 (the 5 previous tanks before I increased the system voltage)
Average mileage since: 26.99
I see no reason, at this point why this trend should not continue, so that is working out to about 4.5 mpg increase which works out to roughly a 20% mileage increase.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Sat Jul 1st, 2006 12:01 am |
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I thought I would add, so that you have a perspective on just how good this mileage is, I typically averaged about 26 - 27 in my Focus doing the exact same driving. So I have nearly twice the displacement 3.8L vs. 2.0L, nearly twice the horsepower, 240 hp (stock) vs. 130 and twice the torque 280 ft/lbs vs. 135 ft/lbs and Im getting pretty near if not above what I was getting in the Focus. I know on the highway, in the Focus I think the best I ever did on an all highway run was about 32 - 33mpg. The Grand Prix, prior to the voltage increase, was already getting 31.5mpg on an all highway run.
I think thats pretty darn fantastic if you ask me.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Mon Jul 3rd, 2006 12:58 am |
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I do run side-gapped Autolite 104 plugs (copper core) on the Grand Prix. I will tell you that I did run E3 spark plugs at one point and I have to say that those are fabulous plugs. VERY noticeable increase in performance. But I ran into an issue with a couple of them, they basically shorted out. They are resistance plugs and two of them were reading near 0 resistance. I think it has to do with the fact that I need to run 1 - 2 range colder plugs and the E3's were stock recommended plugs. That said, I have been talking with an E3 represenative to see if we could figure out what the deal was as I really liked those plugs.
So if you are considering running side-gapped plugs keep in mind that you dont want to cut the electrode off too much and you will have to reduce your gap by about ten thousandths of an inch. So if you are running a 55 thousandths inch gap, you will need to reduce it to around 45 thousandths.
I would also get a feeler gauge for determining the gap. They are far more accurate than the sliding dial type gauges. I would also run a copper core plug. Platinum plugs do virtually nothing for spark, they are more for making the plugs last longer. A plug is just a condiut for the electrical energy of the ignition system. You can either increase ignition voltage or decrease ignition resistance (such as low resistance wires), the plugs wont do anything spectacular to the spark other than make sure it fires and fires correctly.
Another thing to keep in mind is that side-gapped plugs will wear a tad bit faster but that is more due to the fact that copper core plugs do better for side-gapping and they dont have the benefit of platinum, irridium or other techniques to extend their life.
I think Im going to run one more tank with the voltage increase and if my mileage continues to increase or at least hold steady Im going to call this a success as that will put close to 1000 miles of road testing on it. I would love to get over 28 mpg combined driving, but as it is Im darn close and Im not going to complain, thats saving me WAY WAY more money than it cost me to increase the system voltage. In fact it has already paid for itself.
I am going to look into getting a plug-n-play set up for the Focus and hopefully find out if this is an isolated thing or if every vehicle will exhibit the same results.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Tue Jul 4th, 2006 04:50 am |
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Irridium plugs, for all their hype simply just use a very small electrode tip to ensure spark and as a result had to use a material that would protect the electrode so it would last.
Look, the electric companies use a material to transport power to your house that starts out in the 10's of thousands of volts, not unlike a modern ignition system. It gets stepped up or stepped down and finally reaches your house in the form of 120 Vac and 240 Vac.
What is this material? Copper.
Iridium is a extremely hard metal and is the most corrosion resistant metal known and has extremely good high temperature characteristics which is why it finds use in spark plugs. However, iridium plugs are not pure iridium. It is often made with platinum and/or copper.
Simply put, iridium does little to nothing to increase spark energy. It does increase plug life as does platinum. Your best bet in plugs has been and continues to be copper. They dont last as long as platinum or iridium, but copper plugs will transfer about as much energy as there is to transfer to the electrode end of the plug.
That said, the design of the spark plug plays more of a role in ensuring a good spark and that is where you can help mileage and performance in some cases. Splitfire plugs do this by giving two points in which the spark energy can ignite. The only plugs I have ever used that made a noticeable difference in performance were E3 plugs. They designed the plug to take advantage of multiple contact points and the side-gap principle that exposes more of the spark energy to the A/F mixture.
Other than that, there is little you can do with spark plugs to enhance performance and/or mileage. Your best bet is to lower the resistance to the energy generated by the ignition system by using something like low resistance plug wires and/or increasing the ignition voltage and current.
I currently use plug wires that have on average about 40 Ohms of resistance per foot which is about as low as it gets. I run plain copper plugs (one heat range colder to help keep knock retard in check due to boost) that are side-gapped to increase spark exposure.
Trust me when I say I LOVE to experiment. So when I run across something that is viable that claims to increase performance, mileage, etc. then Im usually all over it. As a result I have tried just about every plug out there. Splitfires, Rapidfires, U-groove, etc. And as I mentioned it wasnt until I ran across the E3 plugs that I finally found one that lived up to its billing. But as far as the material used in some high priced plugs today, most is just to increase longevity not performance.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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tekslilbrat
TF Family Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Western Part Of, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 351 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 ZX3 S2 ... | | Occupation: | What is a job??? I used to work..... | | Interests: | School, snowmobiling, cars, trucks, NASCAR, Football, my kids | | Male/Female: | Female |
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Posted: Tue Jul 4th, 2006 09:01 pm |
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Chelly03PZEV wrote: Thanks for all of your experimenting Daniel - it's greatly appreciated by me at least and as a person who doen't have much time to experiment or money to play, it's great to have reviews and ideas shared here.
Keep it coming!
I agree and thanks for the input. I am gonna try it as well. Thanks
____________________
Lovin' My ZX3!!!! I finally gave it a name
SMKNS2!!!!
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
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| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
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Posted: Wed Jul 5th, 2006 02:06 pm |
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No problem. I dont mind doing the experimenting, its the only way that you can separate the hype of marketing from real world experience. Some products deliver, even beyond what they claim (which is why I sell Amsoil), and other products are just plain false advertising.
You have to remember that when they make a claim on a package they are either 1.) lying or 2.) have seen the results they claim in a labratory type setting and not necessarily real world application.
Think about it. Put 5 identical Foci in a line, same year, same engine, same miles, heck even the same driver if you want and I guarantee you each of them will respond slightly if not totally different to plugs, wires, filters, etc. This is why I am such a proponent of oil analysis. Simply put, each of those 5 Foci are going to respond differently to a motor oil. Most of them will do extremely well on a 5W-30 but there may be the one that needs a slightly thicker oil or it may have to run the 5W-20.
Joe is one person that comes to mind in this (and I hope he doesnt mind me mentioning this) but his car just simply did not like the 0W-30 oil. It was partly the forumulation of the oil and partly the fact his car just didnt seem to care for it. They have since revised the 0W-30 formulation, but his car has done exceptionally well and I mean exceptionally well on the XL oil. But all of this was determined with oil analysis primarily. My Focus did better on the 0W-30 than his did though I exhibited some of the same characteristics of oil thickening that he did, but my oil analysis showed my Focus just reacted differently.
The point is that we would not have known without a little experimentation and without oil analysis. You have to separate the customer anticipation of a product (if someone buys something to increase fuel mileage they expect to get an increase and sometimes come to a point where they consciensely or sub-consciencely adjust their driving habbits to get that increase. They drive more sensably, lower speed, etc. Then they attribute that to the product in most cases without realizing it), marketing hype, manufacture testing and real world testing.
Just because you dont see the results claimed doesnt mean the product necessarily didnt work, you have to consider that as well. There could be an issue with the vehicle that prevents it from taking advantage of the product. This is were a great deal of discipline comes in. The ones that document every little thing about their car I have a much easier time dignosing problems with. I have a notebook in the pouch of my car seat that has each and every thing I have done to the car since I bought it, EVERYTHING. I use that in conjunction with the software I use to keep track of fuel mileage, insurance payments, car payments, maintenance, etc. I obviously keep all my oil analysis results as well. Yes, its a little anal Im sure. But if I should ever sell the car I can hand this over to the next owner to give them a little peace of mind or use it at trade in. Dont think that works, well I used it when I traded in the Focus and pointed to all the oil analysis that showed very low wear and no signs of mechanical trouble. I got them to pay the Focus off and I got a great deal on the Grand Prix (right at book value).
At any rate, I'll stop rambling on. Allow me to say dont run out and buy E3 plugs just on my say so. The reason for this is that I never got to try them on the Focus, Ive only been able to use them on the Grand Prix. I have no reason to doubt they should work equally as well on the Focus, particularly with its hemi design as opposed to the 60* design of the Grand Prix. The Focus plug is dead center of the combustion chamber so the E3 plug should do particularly well in that motor becuase of the design of the E3 as opposed to the Grand Prix 60* V design which puts the plug off to one side of the combustion chamber. Anyone ever heard of spark plug spacers? They help overcome the offset design of 60* motors by pointing the electrode of the plug to the far side of the combustion champer to get maximum exposure. However, with the E3 design, it almost becomes a mute issue.
Anyway, Im done, sorry for the long post.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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I only get 25 on the highway and like 22-23 city......how do you guys get more than that or is there something mad wrong with my car
