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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 06:22 pm |
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Well in June of last year, my tranny suddenly started making some odd sounds and growling noises. I consulted one of the nations top 4T65E builders and he said that a rebuild would be needed based on what I was telling him about the symptoms.
I was okay with that, I had been wanting to rebuild it anyway to get it more prepped for track use. Additionally I wanted to have the whole thing cryo treated so I decided to just put it off until it died. Well, 7 months later, it finally did.
After going to a smaller supercharger pulley I developed what seemed like a miss at the top of first bottom of second gear. I had been trying to chase that down thining I was either getting belt slip on the supercharger belt or I was having spark blowout. Neither of which were common with the size pulley I was running. It never dawned on me that the transmission was the source as it just didnt seem like that could produce the symptoms I was having.
Well still trying to chase down what I thought was the issue I installed a set of BRISK LGS plugs and took it out for some test and tune time. Around town it shifted fine, exhibited no issues under normal throttle. I got on some open road and decided to see if I could capture some data that would point me in the right direction.
I lined it up and jabbed the gas. The thing took off like an banshee. Through first all was good, then I hit second and within a second or so of shifting to second I lost power and heard what could only be described as what sounded like someone playing marbles in my transmission. I had hit about 50 mph at that time so I just coasted and had enough speed to make a turn to get out of the way of any traffic.
I put it in park, all was fine. Put it in drive, the marble championship game was back on in my transmission and it would not move. I was only a few miles from home so I called a tow truck and had my baby gently put back into the garage so I could tear into the transmission.
I can pull the differential from the tranny while the transmission is still in the car, so thats what I set out to do. Before doing that I decided I would go ahead and drain the fluid so I dropped the pan and filter and thats when I knew I had definitely reached the point of needing a tranny rebuild.
I took some pictures along the way. I thought I would be mad about it, but actually Im kinda relieved cause now I can build it as I wanted and the thing did last 7 months so Im kinda impressed with its durability as I was not totally easy on the thing in that time. I have made WOT runs in it including some test 1/4 mile runs.
Below are some pics of the carnage:
Heres what I found in the pan:
Here's the filter. For what its worth, all indications are that the filter stopped any of the metal from reaching the rest of the transmission such as the valve body, torque converter and so on:
In most cases, the differential housing gets destroyed, mine held up with minor scarring internally. Its certainly reuseable:
Here's what I found on the speed sensor. I find it odd I never had any issues with accurate speed readings:
Heres my sun gear and the reason I lost forward motion. As you can see it is nearly completely smooth:
Here is a look at the planetary gears, you can see they are chewed up a bit:
I could have slapped in a spare differential I had, had it not been for the damage to the ring gear in the tranny. Its a super tough metal and with it chipped in a few places it would make quick work of any other differential I put in there:
So the GTP is up on jack stands now as I gather things to yank out the tranny and eninge and just do upgrades to both. I have a spare tranny to work with and Im going to rebuild it. I already have a hardened 300M input shaft that GM rates as capable of withstanding 1200 h.p. Obviously I'll never make that and remain streetable so I hopefully will never have any trouble out of it. I have a slightly higher stall converter to put me better in the powerband. Im going to swap out the dual drive chain set up with a stronger 15/16" single chain set up (rated to withstand 750 hp). I also have a rebuild kit and high energy frictions and steels. I have a hardened 4th gear clutch hub. I still need to order my hardened output and pump shafts. The tranny guy I mentioned earlier is going to rebuild the vavle body for me and modify it and the channel plate for greater clamping force and holding ability.
So the work is underway. Im just taking my time for right now, Im in no big hurry to get it all done. I was very close to 100 mph trap speeds in the 1/4 mile, so Im sure with the tranny operating more as it should and with the improvements I should have no problem hitting that goal and Im hoping for low 13's if not high 12's when all the work is done.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 04:01 pm |
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Well, the tear down has started. Im in no big hurry, the Rodeo is holding up fun and proving to be quite the fun platform to test some fuel economy tricks out on. That sucker started out at 17 mpg and my jaw nearly fell off when I first calculated the mileage. But now I have it up near 22 mpg and I havent even switched it over to Amsoil yet nor fixed an exhaust leak it has. Im going to enjoy playing with that vehicle.
Anyway, on to some pics of the tear down.
As you know, my tranny needs to be rebuilt after a differential failure that took out my ring gear and dumped the shredded contents of the differential into my pan.
My philosophy is simple. Make as best as I possibly can financially and knowledgeably can. The simple fact is that I have some goals in mind with regards to fuel economy, durability and performance and I hope to get most of that done through this process.
So with that, here are some pictures of the tear down. I dont know how long it will take to be honest. I still need to find a cherry picker and a couple of engine stands. Once I get those I can put stuff out. But Im in no hurry. There is very little if anything in that engine bay that wont eventually be touched to either clean it up, pait it, detail it, etc. Ive even pulled all the plastic trim pieces to clean those up and paint them.
I do believe Im going to yank out the radiator and go with a slightly larger one just for some added cooling. Though my engine temps rarely exceed 185*, my tranny fluid temps did not go beyond 180* unless I was pushing it hard and then it might might touch on 200* briefly. But I have my fans set via the PCM to come on at 180*, kick into high speed (both fans on) at 190* and to run for 120 seconds after key off if the temp is over 180*. But I want some extra cushion in there for the track. Im most likely will go with an electric water pump and a manual fan control in the cabin so that when Im at the track I can cool things down in a matter of minutes.
Here you can see just how anal I am. Ive labeled just about everything. But the harness more so that I can hopefully re-wire things to be more neat. We'll see how that works out.
Here is the supercharger. Its getting a complete rebuild, new nose drive bearings and seals, new case bearing, outlet and inlet porting and will be cryo treated and then I'll drop that sucker back down to a 3.4" or 3.2" pulley. The port work should reduce outlet temps a bit and I can hopefully run the 3.2 pulley. Average power gains from the pulley is about 7hp for 0.1" drop in pulley size. Stock is 3.8". I have a modular pulley hub on there and I can change out the pulleys in about 10 minutes. So I can run a 3.8 on the street and switch out to the 3.2 for the track or run them full time if I like.
Here is most of my suspension. I want to upgrade the shocks and struts to AGX's, but I havent decided on that, but I am going to do everything I can to get some tubular Lower Control Arms. You can see the GMPP sway bar there as well that dwarfs the OEM sway bar, with its poly bushings.
I need to drain the fluids out then I can pull the LIM and radiator. I guess Im going to have to discharge the AC system. Not really wanting to do that, and I dont really have to, but I want everything out of the engine bay as I plan on touching it up some as well.
Thats it for now. I'll post more as I get stuff done.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 02:31 am |
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You'd be surprised. A dealership quoted me about $3500 for a new crate transmission and that didnt include installation. And all it would be is a factory replacement. A fully build race transmission from a aftermarket vendor was going to run about $3600 plus installation.
Im buying all the parts I need to make it race ready tranny and rebuilding it myself and even with the cryo treating I'll have around $1200 - 1500 in it plus my time.
Im pulling the engine only because the car has 116k on it now and Id like to just tidy it up and replace the sensors, new timing chain, oil pan gasket and stuff like that that would be difficult to do with the engine in the car. Im also replacing the steel sub-frame with an aluminum one and going to dropping the factory brakes with all aluminum calipers, plus the tranny will will a lighter torque converter and all that is going to save me nearly 100 lbs up front.
Im also dropping the fuel lines and going with stainless steel braided lines and -6 AN connectors from the pump to the rails. Im also pulling the heads and will be doing some work to them along with a complete valve train replacement with hardened better hydraulic lifters, Comp Cam push rods, Comp Cam roller rocker, Comp Cam 105# springs, new viton valve seals, locks and retainers and if I can get my hands on a set, Si valves. And all that will be cryo treated as well. My ENTIRE valve train parts cost me less than $500, the heads I got for under $100.
So I might, might have $3000 in it for ALL of the work by the time it is done. But Ive been saving since last June when the tranny started making the noises and stuff the told me it was on the way out. So it lasted some 7 months before it finally gave up the ghost, so Im not going to complain about that at all.
When its all done I should be somewhere north of 300 hp to the wheels and TONS more durable than what it started out as. Ive got a ways to go yet, so we'll see. Im hoping to have it dynoed once I get it all back together, but Im more focused on it being a reliable daily driver that can go smoke a few Mustangs (no offense to anyone). Plus the new G8 GT is out and rated at 360 hp from the factory so I gotta keep up with them, LOL.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 02:28 pm |
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Here are few pics that I took and is as she sits now, minus the hood waiting for everything to come out.
Here you can see pretty clearly the ported lower intake manifold. The opening on it is about twice as large as stock. What you cannot see is a ridge that runs down the middle and splits the air to the intake ports in the heads.
I'll be ditching that part though and taking it back to a more stock opening, gasket matching the ports and such. I have gaskets on there that should stand up to about 15psi or so. Head gaskets are good WELL into the 20's but its difficult to make that kind of boost with a M90. However a Grand Prix vendor is currently testing a twin screw supercharger that significantly lowers outlet temps. Which if that all pans out then I may switch to that set up as I would easily be able to push the upper teens if not lower 20's in boost. Though it would have to be well tuned as at those pressures any hiccup in the fueling could prove a bit problematic.
Here are my engine stands. Paid less than $80 for both of them and they are 1000lb stands, well more than what I would need. The engine and tranny together weigh probably around 600lbs. I know the tranny is around 250lbs assemble and ready to go. Ive dead lifted a 3800 with three other people before onto an engine stand.
Along with the engine stands, you can see the boxes behind them that are holdng my new struts and shocks. KYB GR2's.
Should be interesting once I get everything on the stands and tear it all down. I think I'll do forged pistons in the engine along with powdered metal connecting rods (from the L32 Series III supercharged engine) and clevite bearings throughout. I dont have any plans to bore it over at this point and cryo treat the entire block and rotating assembly. I havent finalized any of that though. The engine shows extremly low wear numbers and so Im debating on whether or not it is worth it to tear into the block or just leave it as it is. But on the other hand I think, I got the thing out, might as well do what I can with the internals while I have the opportunity.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 07:50 pm |
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Well its done, engine and tranny are out of the car and on stands. Let the rebuild begin. I'll be starting with the transmission since its obviously broke and I'll save the engine for last since I need to finalize what all I am going to do to that.
I got to get the garage cleaned up and organized so I can work on the thing. Im running out of room to put everything, LOL
I tell ya, I was some kind of nervous about the whole process. Lifting that much weight out I was super cautious. Though I bought chain and other items rated well beyond the weight of the two it was still nerve racking for me. But its done thank God.
Here are some pics I took.
This was probably the most nerve racking part here. Both the engine and tranny hanging and swinging off the end of that cherry picker. One thought was it will be okay, the next thought was well if it breaks and falls off, guess I wont be doing a rebuild, just by a new engine and tranny and call it good.
Got the engine and tranny separated. Wasnt as bad as I thought it would be. I may become a mechanic after all..
Here is the engine being fitted to the engine stand.
I had intended to stop at this point and just mount up the transmission tomorrow, but things were going fairly well so I decided to go ahead an knock it out.
I guess it wasnt so bad of an ordeal. Now I gotta get busy rebuilding this stuff.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
| Status: |
Offline
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| Mana: | |
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 01:12 pm |
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With successfully getting the engine and trans out Ive started work on tearing down the transmission to rebuild it. I had hoped to have it completely tore down last night, but I tend to be a bit anal about organizing and labeling things, so that took more time than I wanted. But at least I know where all the bolts and connectors go. I guess for about two and a half hours worth of work I didnt do too bad.
You know, I have to say, Im kinda impressed with the job the filter did. I mean, with all the metal I found in the pan, to say nothing of in the filter itself, I have found not one piece in the transmission itself, including the torque converter. I expected to find more metal in the valve body and channel plate but have found nothing. So had it not been for the damage to the ring gear I could have literally installed a new differential and been back on the road. But what fun would that have been?
Here is a shot with the side cover taken off
Reverse Servo removed (That sucker is a bit scary with the spring pressure on it)
Forward Manual Servo Removed (engages the forward band)
The great thing about putting the transmission on a engine stand is that I can rotate it around about 270* or so. More than enough to make it fairly easy to work on.
Here is the bottom (pan side) of the transmission with the 1-2 and 2-3 shift accumulator and the forward apply accumulator
Shift and forward accumulators removed
Here is the valve body, behind it is the channel plate, behind that is the drive chain. I was hoping to get to at least the chain last night, but labeling each of those bolts (according to the manual they are grouped together, so I kept them that way) too quite a bit of time. Additionally the two bolts around the pump shaft are torx bits and were an odd size that in all the sets I had in the garage, none would fit so I had to go out to the storage shed and dig up an old 10+ year old set that I picked up on clearance and it fortunately had one that worked.
Valve Body Removed, Looking at the channel plate
Close up view of the channel plate. If you look close, you'll see a couple of the check balls
Hopefully this evening I can get further along. Im not going to be personally rebuilding the valve body, Id rather not take the chance of doing all this only to have it thwarted by me doing something wrong with the valve body. So once I get it completely disassembled I'll have it cryo treated and send it with the channel plate off for rebuild. There are several updates that need to be applied to the valve body that require tools that are outrageous in price and beyond what Id want to pay for a personal rebuild. Furthermore, the guy I am sending it to is among the best 4T65E transmission re-builder in the country and can work his genius on it to quicken the shifts and make sure the unit works for a long long time to come.
Stay tuned, more updates will be coming.
____________________
My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
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SyntheticShield
TF Moderator
| Joined: | Tue May 25th, 2004 |
| Location: | Bartlesville, Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| Year/Model: | 2001 Pont. Grand Prix GTP ... | | Occupation: | Telecommunications | | Interests: | Storm chasing/Photography | | Male/Female: | Male |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 01:18 pm |
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Well lets pick up where we left off. We were at the channel plate last time, so we'll start there.
Here is the channel plate
 
The back side. You can see the 4th gear clutch pack on the right hand side
 
I pulled out the 4th gear clutch hub shaft and discovered that if the differential had not taken out the tranny, this probably would have in the near future. It is a known issue with the 4T65E and I will replace it with a hardened one that will take care of that issue.
 
Here is how the hub fits into the clutch pack
 
Here is the 4th gear clutches and steels
 
Now we can see the drive chain and the drive and driven sprockets. It is a dual chain set up with 180* offset for noise reduction. You would think two chains would be stronger than one. But not so. I will be going to a single 7/8" wide chain that if I remember correctly is rated for somewhere in the neighborhood of 500hp. I think the GM 1" chain takes it to 750hp, but I can only run 3.29 gears with it and I want to keep stock 2.93 gearing for fuel economy
One of the master links
 
The chain removed
 
Another view
 
Im not sure, but the trust washer doesnt look all that good
 
Disassembled. You can see on the left the driven sprocket with the input shaft still attached. The input shaft will be getting replaced with a 300M Input shaft that is rated to withstand about 1200 hp. Certainly I will never been anywhere near that so it should be overly reliable
 
Now were getting to the innards. By the way, that chain fought me a little on the driven side getting that input shaft to come out. A saws all crossed my mind a couple times.
Dont remember the name but it has to do with the chain set up and trying to get that assembly out of there made me think of a grenade and what a show it would have been putting one in my case and setting it out in the middle of the yard.
 
This is the second gear clutch assembly and the input clutch assembly
 
separated
 
Reverse Reaction carrier thingy
 
A close up view
 
Yep, were emptying the thing out now
 
I wrote down the name of this as well but dont ask me what it is right now
 
Here is the nameless thingy separated out
 
There were some gouges in this thing that did not seem normal to me, right above the groove, but hey its my first tranny. They do look like they were machined in, not from damage.
 
Getting the ring gear out of the case was nothing short of a miracle and made me thing of getting a small thermonuclear device off the black market and letting 'er rip. The manual says 'Grasp and lift straight out'. Well I sure would like to see who they have working on their trannies. When I grabbed it to lift out I was able to pull the tranny around the neighborhood.
I finally had to get a block of wood and a dead blow hammer and pound it out. I didnt get a picture of it, but its the ring gear, its what the differential rides in and is what was chipped when the differential let go and forced my hand on the rebuild
Look ma, theres nothing here
 
 
Okay, here is the shots of the ring gear. All I can tell you is that that ring gear is super hardened. Not brittle just super tough metal and it takes a lot to break one as I have with the chips out of the teeth.
 
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