not much meat there. most private schools cost more than public but on the whole they are better at educating those that attend so i would expect the same to hold true for any service provided except the military.
i hope we don't go social in our health system here. the current system is not good but only because people fear not having insurance. so the providers are siphoning off megabucks for doing nothing except complicating the system.
i am getting along much better both cost-wise and care-wise going bare. it's amazing how much i save on everything by just asking questions and negotiating with the doctors.
"Additionally, government pays most health costs — even in the United States.21 Indeed, public funding for health care in the United States exceeds total health spending in Canada on a per capita basis. It's an odd market that relies largely on public funds. "
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
The differences lie mainly in cost and time of care, I have read about the waiting lines in Canada for health service while in the States you can get the service...you're just going to pay for it...big time. I believe that something needs to be done to stem the rising costs of healthcare, especially since the overall quality of the healthcare system in the US hasn't changed much. However, I think that by having to pay for healthcare you are also more selective in the medical issues you pursue. It's called self-moderative healthcare, I know some people who go to the doctors at least twice a week (I work with her) yet there is absolutely nothing wrong with her (physically). For those that are a little more prone to thinking something is wrong, having to pay has become a deterrent for the minor things that aren't anything in the first place. This is why a number of companies are switching out of the programs with unlimited preset copays, and into medical expense account type programs where you are given a set expense account from your place of work that can be used to pay copays, visits, eyeglasses, and other health related expenses, once you go over that it comes out of your own pocket, thus you are more likely to visit the doctor when you HAVE to and not when you WANT to.
There will always be abuses in any system. Using the exceptions rather than the majority of transactions in any system upon which to base an opinion can lead to conclusions of dubious value. I travel a fair bit and sometimes the differences in healthcare from country to country can be quite noticeable.
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
True, and in her case (twice a week) that is an extreme, but it is still a proven fact that if you have to pay for healthcare, even something as much as a $10 copay, you are more likely to make sure you are sick, rather than let the doctor bill your insurance company for $200 just to say you are fine. Obviously, those who can't spare the $10 are the ones who need the help though. I agree that there are both benefits and drawbacks to both systems. I personally would like to see some reform on the current healthcare system in the US, but I also don't like the idea of socialism, even as someone who qualifies closer to the poor end of the spectrum, I don't like the idea of taking from the rich and giving to the poor...I believe there are better ways to solve the social dichotomy that exists in the US better than that. I think to move the US to a socialist viewpoint and removing what in essence is the competitive fire (the drive to want to be the rich) would eventually cripple the economy. It has happened on several other occasions. Competitive social structure while not fair, seems to be the most sustainable. Fair social structure often leads to complacency. In a perfect world everyone would contribute the same to the pot, and take the same from the pot, but this just isn't the case. For an interesting idea into this concept Ayn Rand's book "Atlas Shrugged" while long, makes some very interesting points. Worthy to note that Ayn Rand was born in Russia, and was witness to the Communist Ideals, and how they worked, so she has not only an interesting view but a real personal experience with not only the theoretical practice of Communism but the practical results of such a societal structure.
Last edited on Tue Jun 8th, 2004 04:10 pm by RPIJG
The mention of Ayn Rand brought a smile to my face.
I read her years ago and at that time thought that many answers were there. Since then I've been around too much and I don't think that either system is by any means perfect. Communism and Socialism are not identical. There has never been a Communist country that I'm aware of. There are some that started out that way but soon became horribly corrupted versions of that ideal. Capitalism also has it's problems but seems to have more going right than wrong.
There needs to be a balance between the individual rights and the common society.
I don't have the answers
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
I wish you did, cause I don't either. I think the faults lie mainly in human faults and not so much in the policies themselves (all the time, some of them are not worth getting into). I only speak from my own standpoint in which I feel even though I am not rich, I can be...I can work hard and get richer, I wouldn't like the feeling where, if I made more, I would have to contribute even more to the social well being, I guess you could call it socially egocentric, my problem lies with the large number of people in the US already who are abusing the social services we supply right now.
RPIJG wrote: I wish you did, cause I don't either. I think the faults lie mainly in human faults and not so much in the policies themselves (all the time, some of them are not worth getting into). I only speak from my own standpoint in which I feel even though I am not rich, I can be...I can work hard and get richer, I wouldn't like the feeling where, if I made more, I would have to contribute even more to the social well being, I guess you could call it socially egocentric, my problem lies with the large number of people in the US already who are abusing the social services we supply right now.
I suppose that I'm considered relatively well-off. Just because I choose to put in 18 hour days doesn't mean that I expect anyone else to do so. I actively discourage it. Think that people ought to have lives.
It may be due to a European cultural background so my opinions are not necessarily shared by other Canadians. I don't mind paying taxes as long as the money isn't stolen by some politico's buddy. Perhaps my exposure to rottenly poor countries has made me understand just how wealthy Canada is. I don't agree with Norway's social program structure, think it's just gone too far. However, having any of my countrymen malnourished or not having access to decent healthcare and education is unacceptable. If 5% of them are going to steal un-needed healthcare or welfare support I don't think that that justifies trashing the entire system.
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
True, trashing the systems would be bad, and I wouldn't go as far as that, but serious welfare reform is needed here in the states, we have a lot of problems with our system and escalating costs are just the start of it, things like people living on welfare actually being better off financially than those who are working at a job. Something just isn't right there.
RPIJG wrote: True, trashing the systems would be bad, and I wouldn't go as far as that, but serious welfare reform is needed here in the states, we have a lot of problems with our system and escalating costs are just the start of it, things like people living on welfare actually being better off financially than those who are working at a job. Something just isn't right there.
Yes, there is something wrong with a structure where someone who is working 40+ a week is worse off than someone who is not working at all.
Various places have tried working on minimum wage levels to bring those people up to a decent living level.
Has had it's problems. That's where having the basics like healthcare be fundamentally free helps out. Regressive taxes like a sales tax are counterproductive. Theory is that if a given person wants to live in a given society and that there is a consensus that all the members of that society should have at the least a minimum standard of living, then those who can afford to pay more should do so to help out those who are below the minimums. End result is supposed to be a better quality of life for all those in that society. I think the problem is that the consensus is not there in most societies.
This was a long-winded way of coming back to rising costs. Private healthcare has shareholders to keep happy. Public healthcare has to answer to the society as a whole.
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
I agree, only problem with providing that same health service to everyone (and I hate to be this way about this trust me) is that there just certainly isn't enough providers out there. There certainly aren't enough nurses and not even enough doctors (malpractice runs rampant). Increasing the number of people who have access to an already overwhelmed healthcare system isn't going to solve any problems, in fact it could very well make things worse. Just providing the ability to get healthcare doesn't really fix the problem of supplying that healthcare, more nurses, more doctors and better funding for more hospitals is a better solution. Perhaps increasing the number of free health clinics, and providing better funding to them is a better answer.
Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better.
If the goal is to have high quality healthcare for every citizen then the priority has to be put on that goal.
If one of the constraints is high malpractise insurance then those who are educating and certifying those practioners have to be held accountable. Then the quality of service increases and the liability is reduced.
The numbers in that second study above suggests that there would be a few billion more dollars available if the system was public rather than private.
I don't have all the information on prescription drug costs in Canada vs the US but the differences are significant. The public system here negotiates a fair price. In the US the pricing is based on whatever the market will pay.
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
RPIJG wrote: This has so many complex economic ramifications it's amazing.
Yup!
There are fundamental societal values at the root of the issue. Once those have been determined then, like anything else, it's just identifying the constraints, and making stuff happen.
It's a huge puzzle. I used to like doing puzzles. LOL
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
FLAZX5 wrote: Codger wrote: Do think Rick ever envisioned a Focus message board being the platform upon which the problems of the world are discussed and solved?
sure...he's quite the profit (mis-spelled in his honor)Keep that up Mr Flaz and you'll be a junior moderator in no time!
teamfocus wrote: FLAZX5 wrote: Codger wrote: Do think Rick ever envisioned a Focus message board being the platform upon which the problems of the world are discussed and solved?
sure...he's quite the profit (mis-spelled in his honor)Keep that up Mr Flaz and you'll be a junior moderator in no time!
bingo. He's being prophetic already.
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
I think the faults lie mainly in human faults and not so much in the policies themselves (all the time, some of them are not worth getting into). I only speak from my own standpoint in which I feel even though I am not rich, I can be...I can work hard and get richer, I wouldn't like the feeling where, if I made more, I would have to contribute even more to the social well being, I guess you could call it socially egocentric, my problem lies with the large number of people in the US already who are abusing the social services we supply right now.
