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Mr. Versatile
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Posted: Thu Mar 24th, 2005 12:18 pm |
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I'm puzzled by the recent shootings at a mid-western high school. As always, I'm puzzled by why it happened, how it happened, what security measures were in place, what were the circumstances, etc. Why aren't we hearing about all the grief that the families of those who were killed or wounded are going through? Why isn't there the amount of outrage, and the scrambling to put new security measures in place? Why aren't there news interviews from the hospital bedsides of the wounded?
Ten human beings are dead, and more hospitalized, yet the news coverage seems to be much less than was given to Columbine, which was arguably the most infamous school shooting incident in the U.S. I wonder why? Is because we're so accustomed to hearing about this kind of incident, that we're numbed to it now? Is it because there's so much going on in the nation & world right now? Is it because nobody gives a crap? I really don't know..........really! I don't
Can you give the name of the shooter, anyone who was shot, or even the name of the high school? Be perfectly honest here. Don't grab the paper or cut to another web site to look it up.
I would like NOT to think that it's because it happened on Native American soil, and that the shooter & most of the victims were not white, middle, or upper middle class. But, I wonder. I also wonder about Scott Peterson. The murder he committed likely got more press than Bonnie & Clyde and the St. Valentine's Day Massacre combined did in their day. If the victim had been a black woman from a ghetto in a large city, would it have gotton the same attention?
I honestly do not know the answers to these questions.
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Chelly03PZEV
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Posted: Thu Mar 24th, 2005 12:30 pm |
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You know Mr. V - I'm one of those people who is puzzled, angered, saddened & all sorts of emotions when it comes to events like this.
I personally wish we could hear some more good news from the bad. Who survived?! I know that those who survived will think back on these things and have horrible memories and I know there are devistated homes and families, but I've had just about enough of all of this BS.
My problem with it all? Excuses - Let's make excuses as to why our kids/citizens are doing crap like this - Instead of blaming on the parents AS IT SHOULD BE! Let's blame it on the teachers who are overworked and underpaid at best! Let's blame it on the music, the violence in video games - that's what did it!
Let's ignore the hateful banter that's thrown at these kids from the "popular crowd" about how worthless they are. You know I can completely relate to the absolute devistation a kid can experience from being emotionally, verbally and on some levels physically assaulted every damned day from cruel kids in school. It drives you to either be a bigger and better person or pushes you to the edge of suicidal thoughts and even in some cases homicidal. I have some stories about myself and the thoughts I had - long stories, but if anyone's interested feel free to pm me. I never acted on these thoughts because I had wonderful parents that talked to me. They saw the abuse I was getting fromt he kids and stepped in. They didn't blame anyone else but the parents for not teaching their damned kids compassion and common courtesy.
I hate the news - I read it, watch it & listen to it so I'm not dumbed down and completely ignorant as to what's going on, but I can only take so much.
No one takes responsibility anymore.
So far as a specific group or race being singled out here or there - Why would we pay any attention to the plight of a minority? We're driven and led by our White, zealotous, right winged conservatives. Sling the Bull Sh*t around and hide the rest.
Yes, i have issues with a lot of things.
Oh - PS - Let that poor woman in a coma die! So freakin' help me - If someone keeps me alive for over a decade like that I'd be very disapointed. Let her be peaceful and let's focus on what's really at stake here! - Our government trying to step in to dictate the fate of a private citizen! George - back the hell up and leave this whole Right to Life thing alone!
Oh man I could just go on and on and on.
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ProjectFocusFast
TF Senior Moderator
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Posted: Mon Mar 28th, 2005 08:17 pm |
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Bad parenting. That's why it happened. How did the kids get the guns in the forst place? Did the parents have ANY CLUE their kids were going to do something like this?
In every case it's "No". Parents don't pay enough attention to their kids anymore. In a world of day-care, fast food and both parents working, this is what we have come to.
I've already discussed this with Sherri and told her that our kids WILL have one stay-at-home parent until they reach school age. That's just how it has to be. My children will not be raised by day-care and babysitters. That's how shit like this happens- when parents ARE NOT PARENTING.
I'm not saying SHE has to stay home, it may be me who is a stay-at-home dad. That's fine. But CHILDREN NEED TO BE BROUGHT UP BY THEIR PARENTS, DICIPLINED WELL and TAUGHT MORALS. Day-care, babysitters, etc is not "bringing up your children."
I'm getting off my soapbox now.
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03 white zx3
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Posted: Tue Mar 29th, 2005 01:13 pm |
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ProtoRice wrote:
Bad parenting. That's why it happened. How did the kids get the guns in the forst place? Did the parents have ANY CLUE their kids were going to do something like this?
In every case it's "No". Parents don't pay enough attention to their kids anymore. In a world of day-care, fast food and both parents working, this is what we have come to.
I've already discussed this with Sherri and told her that our kids WILL have one stay-at-home parent until they reach school age. That's just how it has to be. My children will not be raised by day-care and babysitters. That's how shit like this happens- when parents ARE NOT PARENTING.
I'm not saying SHE has to stay home, it may be me who is a stay-at-home dad. That's fine. But CHILDREN NEED TO BE BROUGHT UP BY THEIR PARENTS, DICIPLINED WELL and TAUGHT MORALS. Day-care, babysitters, etc is not "bringing up your children."
I'm getting off my soapbox now.
Oh give me a fucking break.
So I'm a bad mom because I don't stay at home with my daughter. You know sometimes that simply isn't possible. Just because a parent works does NOT mean that they still can't be parents. It doesn't mean that I don't have the time tot each my daughter morals or discipline her or even spend time with her. My daughter spends a whole 2 hours a day with a "babysitter" (a very good friend of mine) afterschool.
Just because I work doesn't mean that she misses out on anything. Bah that pissed me off and I just woke up and I can't even think now.
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Pokes
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Posted: Tue Mar 29th, 2005 01:22 pm |
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03 white zx3 wrote: ProtoRice wrote:
Bad parenting. That's why it happened. How did the kids get the guns in the forst place? Did the parents have ANY CLUE their kids were going to do something like this?
In every case it's "No". Parents don't pay enough attention to their kids anymore. In a world of day-care, fast food and both parents working, this is what we have come to.
I've already discussed this with Sherri and told her that our kids WILL have one stay-at-home parent until they reach school age. That's just how it has to be. My children will not be raised by day-care and babysitters. That's how shit like this happens- when parents ARE NOT PARENTING.
I'm not saying SHE has to stay home, it may be me who is a stay-at-home dad. That's fine. But CHILDREN NEED TO BE BROUGHT UP BY THEIR PARENTS, DICIPLINED WELL and TAUGHT MORALS. Day-care, babysitters, etc is not "bringing up your children."
I'm getting off my soapbox now.
Oh give me a fucking break.
So I'm a bad mom because I don't stay at home with my daughter. You know sometimes that simply isn't possible. Just because a parent works does NOT mean that they still can't be parents. It doesn't mean that I don't have the time tot each my daughter morals or discipline her or even spend time with her. My daughter spends a whole 2 hours a day with a "babysitter" (a very good friend of mine) afterschool.
Just because I work doesn't mean that she misses out on anything. Bah that pissed me off and I just woke up and I can't even think now.
I agree with you on that. Just because my bf son has to go to daycare everyday so that he can work does NOT make him a bad parent. Would he like to stay home with him? Yes, but with the cost of bringing up a child that isnt an option, so he goes to school for the day. Is it a bad thing. HELL NO. He still gets the time with his father (and mother during her visitations), he learns right from wrong, morals, and now the world works. He is an only child, if he were to be at home all day he would have NO interatcion with children his age, he wouldnt learn how to play or share properly with others, he would just become a spoiled little brat that when he went to school wouldnt know how to interact with other children.
Would we like to work less to spend time with him... yes... but the fact that financially it is impossible does NOT make him a bad parent or mean that his son is going to end up anti-social outcast who is going to go on a rampage causing death and distruction!!
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ProjectFocusFast
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Posted: Tue Mar 29th, 2005 05:48 pm |
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I don't know- but I feel the world was a MUCH better place back when every child had one working parent and one non-working parent. Look at crime rates, teen pregnancy rates, all the things that have been the decline of this country.
When did all this stuff start getting bad? When more and more parents started both working. I don't have a problem with women working, nor men being stay-at-home parents. But EVERY CHILD NEEDS A PARENT TO HELP THEM DEVELOP! Seeing your child for 2 hours a day between work and bed is not parenting in my opinion. Letting other people bring up a child is not parenting. You can't expect a child to spend 8 hours a day with a child-care giver and 2 hours a day with you, and then the child grow up with your morals and the way you want them to!
I understand that some people can't afford to be stay at home parents. But, if you couldn't afford to live off one spouse's income... why did you have a child to begin with? What if one of you lost your job? If you cannot afford a child, DON'T HAVE ONE! Other countries TAX you on children, not give tax breaks and welfare, etc. You get ADDED TAX for having children in other countries. You have to be able to AFFORD a child... or you simply don't get to have one!
The problem with today's world is that parents believe that by letting their kids grow up by sending them to day care and babysitters they will come out OK. Young children need ATTENTION FROM THEIR PARENTS, 24/7. A child isn't a commodity- a child is a RESPONSIBILITY. YOU are responsible for raising YOUR OWN children, teaching them right from wrong, teaching them how to ride a bike and brush their teeth.
Kids who don't get BROUGHT UP by their parents don't END UP like their parents.
My daughter spends a whole 2 hours a day with a "babysitter" (a very good friend of mine) afterschool. I am mainly talking about pre-school-age children. A case like this is fine... 2 hours a day is not a long time to spend at a good friend's house. To quote myself: "I've already discussed this with Sherri and told her that our kids WILL have one stay-at-home parent until they reach school age." I can understand that school sometimes DOES have to be the child's home during the day. I don't expect parents to not work forever, but they should work while the child(ren) are at school, spending as much time as possible guiding and helping them when they get home.
Pokes, as for your b/f situation... doesn't the child have grandparents, or could the father work a shift while the child is sleeping? What about the mother? Could she watch the child during the day? Maybe it's not at all possible... then all you can do is HOPE the child grows up with it's father's morals, not the child-care-provider's.
Look at this situation. The child didn't have any parents to turn to. The father? Well, if he committed suicide, then I think it's safe to rest a big part of this on him. HE wasn't there for this child, to teach the child how to deal with problems and other people. If he had someone to turn to, maybe this could've been avoided. But like father like son... only the son took more people out with him.
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Pokes
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Posted: Tue Mar 29th, 2005 06:42 pm |
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ProtoRice wrote: I don't know- but I feel the world was a MUCH better place back when every child had one working parent and one non-working parent. Look at crime rates, teen pregnancy rates, all the things that have been the decline of this country.
When did all this stuff start getting bad? When more and more parents started both working. I don't have a problem with women working, nor men being stay-at-home parents. But EVERY CHILD NEEDS A PARENT TO HELP THEM DEVELOP! Seeing your child for 2 hours a day between work and bed is not parenting in my opinion. Letting other people bring up a child is not parenting. You can't expect a child to spend 8 hours a day with a child-care giver and 2 hours a day with you, and then the child grow up with your morals and the way you want them to!
I understand that some people can't afford to be stay at home parents. But, if you couldn't afford to live off one spouse's income... why did you have a child to begin with? What if one of you lost your job? If you cannot afford a child, DON'T HAVE ONE! Other countries TAX you on children, not give tax breaks and welfare, etc. You get ADDED TAX for having children in other countries. You have to be able to AFFORD a child... or you simply don't get to have one!
The problem with today's world is that parents believe that by letting their kids grow up by sending them to day care and babysitters they will come out OK. Young children need ATTENTION FROM THEIR PARENTS, 24/7. A child isn't a commodity- a child is a RESPONSIBILITY. YOU are responsible for raising YOUR OWN children, teaching them right from wrong, teaching them how to ride a bike and brush their teeth.
Kids who don't get BROUGHT UP by their parents don't END UP like their parents.
Pokes, as for your b/f situation... doesn't the child have grandparents, or could the father work a shift while the child is sleeping? What about the mother? Could she watch the child during the day? Maybe it's not at all possible... then all you can do is HOPE the child grows up with it's father's morals, not the child-care-provider's.
Your thinking, its good. THeory, its wonderful... but reality is much more difficult. You dont know what is gonna happen in your life... what if you have one person working and they lose thier job... then what do you do? YOu have nothing saved bc its all been spent already on supporting yourself and the child. Im not going to even dicuss it anymore because (a) it has managed to hijack a thread and (b) im am compeltly pissed off at the lack of any understanding and you all but saying that anyone who CANT stay home with thier child is a bad person and should have never had a kid to begin with
As for my situation.... its something that you will never understand so i wont even try. Does he have grandparents.. yes... but ya see.. they work too.. people have jobs and lives.. they shouldnt have to be taking care of thier childs child. Does he have a mother... ofcourse he does... but if there has been a divorce obviously SOMETHING is wrong there so why would we send him there during the day or why should she take him? Note: The childs FATHER has custody of the child NOT THE MOTHER. That right there should send up some red flags. As for taking on 3rd shift.. who watched the child when he is sleeping? You are assuming that a single parent will have help raising a child... that is rarely the case in the real world.
You dont have a child, you DONT understand the reality of it.
IF you have an opinion on something you dont understand since you ARE NOT IN THE SITUATION.. fine... but never.. NEVER allude to the fact that you are a better person than them since they dont go by your idealism.
Last edited on Tue Mar 29th, 2005 06:47 pm by Pokes
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03 white zx3
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Posted: Wed Mar 30th, 2005 01:27 am |
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ProtoRice wrote:
I don't know- but I feel the world was a MUCH better place back when every child had one working parent and one non-working parent. Look at crime rates, teen pregnancy rates, all the things that have been the decline of this country.
When did all this stuff start getting bad? When more and more parents started both working. I don't have a problem with women working, nor men being stay-at-home parents. But EVERY CHILD NEEDS A PARENT TO HELP THEM DEVELOP! Seeing your child for 2 hours a day between work and bed is not parenting in my opinion. Letting other people bring up a child is not parenting. You can't expect a child to spend 8 hours a day with a child-care giver and 2 hours a day with you, and then the child grow up with your morals and the way you want them to!
I understand that some people can't afford to be stay at home parents. But, if you couldn't afford to live off one spouse's income... why did you have a child to begin with? What if one of you lost your job? If you cannot afford a child, DON'T HAVE ONE! Other countries TAX you on children, not give tax breaks and welfare, etc. You get ADDED TAX for having children in other countries. You have to be able to AFFORD a child... or you simply don't get to have one!
The problem with today's world is that parents believe that by letting their kids grow up by sending them to day care and babysitters they will come out OK. Young children need ATTENTION FROM THEIR PARENTS, 24/7. A child isn't a commodity- a child is a RESPONSIBILITY. YOU are responsible for raising YOUR OWN children, teaching them right from wrong, teaching them how to ride a bike and brush their teeth.
Kids who don't get BROUGHT UP by their parents don't END UP like their parents.
My daughter spends a whole 2 hours a day with a "babysitter" (a very good friend of mine) afterschool. I am mainly talking about pre-school-age children. A case like this is fine... 2 hours a day is not a long time to spend at a good friend's house. To quote myself: "I've already discussed this with Sherri and told her that our kids WILL have one stay-at-home parent until they reach school age." I can understand that school sometimes DOES have to be the child's home during the day. I don't expect parents to not work forever, but they should work while the child(ren) are at school, spending as much time as possible guiding and helping them when they get home.
Pokes, as for your b/f situation... doesn't the child have grandparents, or could the father work a shift while the child is sleeping? What about the mother? Could she watch the child during the day? Maybe it's not at all possible... then all you can do is HOPE the child grows up with it's father's morals, not the child-care-provider's.
Look at this situation. The child didn't have any parents to turn to. The father? Well, if he committed suicide, then I think it's safe to rest a big part of this on him. HE wasn't there for this child, to teach the child how to deal with problems and other people. If he had someone to turn to, maybe this could've been avoided. But like father like son... only the son took more people out with him.
I'm not going to get into the reasons I have my daughter. But she's here. There's nothing I can (nor would) do about that now. I did spend he first 2.5 years at home with her and my little sister while my mom worked 16+ hours a day (I had my daughter when I was 14). But I made the choice to be a parent not to simply have a child. Being a parent means sacrificing other things in your life. There is nothing as important on this earth (or beyond) besides my daughter and there isn't anything I wouldn't give for her. Yes I regret that she didn't come into this perfect stable two parent household where one was able to be there 24/7, but that's life. Things happen and you make the best of them.
I don't know where you're getting this only spending 2 hours a day with parents from. Normal jobs are 8 hours a day. My own personal commute takes less than 5 minutes. There are 24 hours in a day. Where are the other 8 hours going? (8 for sleeping, 8 for working).
My daughter is a second grader in school. We wake up at 7 AM, eat breakfast get ready for the day and leave around 8:10. She gets done at 3 PM and I pick her up around 5:10. We go home, make and eat supper, do homework, whatever activities she has scheduled and head to bed for reading at 8:30. Even so, it's not your part to judge others for working. You are looking down on a huge part of the population for needing a job while being a parent.
Do you realize how expensive having a child truly is? And while money isn't everything, you can't feed a child with love.
You should do whatever is right for your family (and I think having a stay at home parent is a WONDERFUL thing for a child- it simply isn't realistic financialy anymore) and not look down at mine for making different choices.
You mentioned what do you do when a spouse loses his/her job, well we just went through that. quite honestly I don't know HOW we made it through those 3 months (besides using credit cards) and I certainly wouldn't want to do it every month.
And your comment about mainly talking about preschool aged children.. look at what the thread is about. School aged children, NOT preschool aged children.
Point being, it IS possible to be a truly loving attentive WORKING parent.Last edited on Wed Mar 30th, 2005 01:31 am by 03 white zx3
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Chelly03PZEV
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Posted: Wed Mar 30th, 2005 02:31 am |
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Ok, since I have to put my  in as well as possibly offer an alternative connotation and/or spin on the comments about parenting.
#1 - It would be nice if all kids could have one parent at home and one that earns the income. That is a given and far gone by the wayside due to the times we have created for ourselves....so much for progress huh?
#2 - Parenting - Now this is very subjective - I believe parents, even single parents can have a positive impact on a child and try to fight against the horror, danger and outside influances out in the world. Parents, all of you, don't take generalizations here as personal attacks...I believe you do what you can for your children, if you don't then shame on you and it will come back on you.
Sometimes a single parent can give more positive, reinforcing character building that 2 parents that hate each other or are home living off of some type of social help of some kind.
A parent has to talk to their kids...I can tell you right now I know that I am the good person I am (even with my faults and mistakes) because my parents were always open to any conversation I wanted to talk about and they didn't judge me for any of my views...they took the information, gave me what they thought was acceptable and left me to my own devices to learn by mistakes and victories. I know plenty of people who NEVER had that, but they had nuturing and were given basic principals, and turned out fine. Then you can flip that whole thing around. The richest, most well off kids in the world have problems.
I mean just look what was said about this kid...Dad gone, Mom basically gone, living with Gramps who's a cop...wild stories and cops have it tough! Our Resident LT has been MIA for over a year if not more now because of his job. He has a wife and 2 kids...that's tough work.
We have an epidemic here in this country where kids don't use their imagination as they should...they sit in front of the electronic babysitters (TV, Video Games, Computers) and are left to answer their own questions and have themselves molded to the ways of their friends when they don't have parental intervention. You can't put a kid in a straight jacket, making them stay home all the time and towing the mark 100% without error or you drive them out and into trouble 10 times as fast. I can attest to that one! I was ill for most of my young life starting with Elementary school. I didnt' know anything outside of hospitals...I was clueless.
I am not discounting the problem with parenting though...There is a severe problem and I can tell you right now...there were a whole boat load of poor choices made by my parents parents as well. Baby Boomers have screwed a lot up too. *right fellas 
#3 - I don't know enough about ALL Native American reservations and what kind of help they get, but for crying out loud - White, Anglo Saxons killed them, raped them, stole EVERYTHING from them - reperations of some kind don't bother me there. The problem being is we don't give them the resources to thrive and limit their benifits in some cases to make them have to be self sufficient like they've done with Unemployment for the rest of us. It's not a gift, it's earned. I have 2 different lines of Northern Native American in my heritage, but I wouldn't expect anything from anyone just because of that. Even to this day, illness and all, I work hard for what I have.
I have seen what alcohol can do to a Native...I've seen it close up...they pickle themselves. Their livers don't have as much of the enzymes to process alcohol the way other races have. White Men introduced it to them...crippled them by it, stole from them...made them addicted. I like to use the analogy Tabacco Companies and all of those addicted to cigarettes...that's killing you and those who are around you, and when you can't live without medical help and you don't work anymore, lose your medical insurance and cost the American Taxpayer to stay alive with your lung cancer, Emphasema and other chronic illnesses brought on by smoking. (this is by no means meant as a character attack on anyone here, but it is my opinion as a FORMER smoker)
The big and the small of it...Kids aren't getting the help they need. Parents aren't seeing the signs - sometimes there aren't any to see. I was severely suicidal throughout high school and up into my 20's...even tried a few times, but didn't follow through. My parents never knew...until I was much older.
Each person is different...some have more needs than others...there is no reason in the whole world why a boy/man who shows emotion should be called a sissy or thought to be any less of a man because of it...but guess what...It's a cultural phenomenon...when you don't have the strongest will, you many times get overlooked and that's when sad things like this happen. He needed someone, something and wasn't getting it.
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03 white zx3
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Posted: Wed Mar 30th, 2005 02:53 am |
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#3 - I don't know enough about ALL Native American reservations and what kind of help they get, but for crying out loud - White, Anglo Saxons killed them, raped them, stole EVERYTHING from them - reperations of some kind don't bother me there. The problem being is we don't give them the resources to thrive and limit their benifits in some cases to make them have to be self sufficient like they've done with Unemployment for the rest of us. It's not a gift, it's earned. I have 2 different lines of Northern Native American in my heritage, but I wouldn't expect anything from anyone just because of that. Even to this day, illness and all, I work hard for what I have.
I have seen what alcohol can do to a Native...I've seen it close up...they pickle themselves. Their livers don't have as much of the enzymes to process alcohol the way other races have. White Men introduced it to them...crippled them by it, stole from them...made them addicted. I like to use the analogy Tabacco Companies and all of those addicted to cigarettes...that's killing you and those who are around you, and when you can't live without medical help and you don't work anymore, lose your medical insurance and cost the American Taxpayer to stay alive with your lung cancer, Emphasema and other chronic illnesses brought on by smoking. (this is by no means meant as a character attack on anyone here, but it is my opinion as a FORMER smoker)
I have to admit that I have a hard time with this happening on a reservation. My husband is almost full blooded Native American and has many relatives still living on a reservation in upper Michigan. While I don't share as much NA blood, I still have many relatives living on a reservation here in Wisconsin. It is certainly a different way of living honestly. I don't think I could ever live on one even though my hubby wants to retire and build a house on his (years down the road).
Alcohol can cripple anyone but it does seem to be more prevalent with Natives. When we married we both promised each other we would not drink. Just because of what alcohol in general does let alone add in the fact of our heritage.
People make choices in life. I guess I hadn't read about him losing both parents, but I think it's obvious a child needs at *least one person supporting them fully.
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"Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either, just fuck off and leave me alone. "
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