Its their fault that Ford has to cut the jobs. How do they condone warehouse workers making $18-20 an hour for packing parts? All domestic manf. are suffering cause of that. Dumbass americans expect to get paid for doing nothing. Socialist welfare attitude's seen to that.
Captain J wrote: Its their fault that Ford has to cut the jobs. How do they condone warehouse workers making $18-20 an hour for packing parts? All domestic manf. are suffering cause of that. Dumbass americans expect to get paid for doing nothing. Socialist welfare attitude's seen to that.Have you ever done their job? Have you ever seen them do their job?
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i think unions have outlived their original purpose which was to create one voice for all workers. seems that now they do nothing but make demands and line their pockets. workers pay a fairly good amount in union dues, and the union also has other monetary sources. ever looked at some of their anual reports? why does it take so many to speak for the workers? unions have grown into nothing more than a business anymore. they are demanding things and putting workers out of jobs because of it. how much is really added to the cost of say a car because of big wages demanded by them, lawyer fees etc. because they are constantly in court with companies, etc, etc...
and no this isnt reperesentative of all unions, but quite a few.
My friend's mother worked for GM before they shut down the plant here in Okieville. She drove the finished cars from the line out to the parking lot. She made $30/h.
Captain J wrote: My friend's mother worked for GM before they shut down the plant here in Okieville. She drove the finished cars from the line out to the parking lot. She made $30/h.
I wear contact lenses. The cheapest I have ever found the particular ones I wear was $8.00 each, plus tax and shipping. It costs the company that makes them 2.7 cents to make one, without union labor. Is this all right?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but he example you used seems to indicate that this woman makes too much money for the labor she provided. That begs the question; Is it all right for companies to make too much money for the products or services they provide. The sword cuts both ways.
Unions are part of the checks and balances of the financial world. If unions had their own way, all their members would be making a fortune, could never be fired, and would have terrific benefits.
If there were no unions, many people would be working for minimum wage, have no benefits, and could be fired or demoted without cause.
A personal story. I was a teacher, quit teaching to run a business. My business was moderately successful, had 7 full-time employees. I was very, very good to my employees, because without their work, support, and loyalty, I would have been dogmeat. It was my belief, (and still is), that a happy employee will work harder, longer, with more accuracy than one who feels like they're under the boss's thumb all the time. Unfortunately, there seem to be many employers who do not share those values.
I sold my business to take a job as a counselor for an agency that provides residential services for mentally retarded people. I have a graduate degree in teaching and counselling developmentally handicapped folks. When I was a teacher, I was making around $40, 000. Teaching is a union job. I also had pretty good benefits.
When I took the new job as a counselor, I was assigned to supervise 2 group homes. The responsibilities were great, but I enjoyed the challenges, putting in my 8-10 hours per day. Then one day, my boss told me I had to work Sat. & Sun. too. OK. I figured it was for just a week or 2, and I would get paid extra for it. No, and no. It was to be a regular occurrance. How regular? Oh, maybe 40-50 weekends per year with no additional pay. Then I got a pager. I was put "on call" 24-7. If I was celebrating Christmas eve with my family, and someone called in sick, they'd page me and I would immediately have to come in to work. I was told I had 15 minutes to respond and had to be at work within 90 min., or I could be fired. I asked, "What if I'm at the gym swimming and get paged. I can't hear the pager? ans. Try not to engage in activities that put you in that situation. What if I'm visiting my kids in Ann Arbor, Michigan? I can't get to work in 90 min. from there. I was told I had to get permission to leave town before I left.
I did have some benefits. I got 10 days paid vacation per year. I also got paid sick time. But the paid sick time came at the expense of your vacation days. If I got the flu and was out for 3 days, those 3 days would be deducted from my vacation days earned that year, so I would only have 7 remaining. I could go on, and on, and on with this true story, but I think you're probably getting the drift.
You could rightly say that if I didn't like it, I could always leave. Naturally, I did just that. And where did I go? Yep! Right back to a union job as a public school teacher.
I don't think I'm an exceptional person. I think what happened to me is not out-of-the-ordinary, when employers have no checks to prevent them from treating their employees in this manner. I worked a Ford on the assembly line for 2 years. I know what they make, and I know what their jobs are. Our plant manager was once asked by a newspaper what she would pay the employees if there was no union. Her response? What is the minimum wage required by law?
As for unions being the sole cause of the demise of the American auto industry, or being the principal cause of the high cost of vehicles, you need only look to the orient. They don't have union labor there, yet their prices are roughly equal to, or sometimes greater than American vehicles. The reason their vehicles are generally better than ours, (and they are), is mostly engineering. Our engineers & designers are not union employees.
Unions are not all good. There has been significant corruption, but the corporate world has easily matched them. Unions serve a needed function, which is to speak and bargain for those, who alone, would have no voice. There are fewer sweatshops, and untold tens of thousands have improved their lives thanks to them. As I said earlier, they're part of the checks and balance system that keep things on a relatively even keel. Sort of like Republicans, Democrats, and Independants. I'd hate to see our govt. completely dominated by one party. Hell, they could do anything they wanted unfettered. To me, that's really scary.
Well, I hope you have a nice weekend.
Oh. By the way...................weekends? Brought to you courtesy of labor unions.
Last edited on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 02:05 am by Mr. Versatile
____________________ If you can't read this, you're illiterate.
Some very good points Mr V... jeez that one job sounds pretty awful, hor frustrating that must've been to keep being piled upon with duties and being pretty much at the mercy of coworkers' whims (calling in sick and you having to cover immediately). I wouldn't have lasted very long there myself, after they started to pull all that out of the woodwork.
I agree on the Unions thing. I think they came into existance to fulfill a desperate need that workers at the time deserved to have taken care of. I think workers still need safeguards like that on their jobs today, has corporate America gotten any kinder or more humane? I think not, they're every bit as greedy and miserly I would think, except they must abide by laws now. I'm no historian, but I do think unions have evolved from their original form, which makes sense considering the world has changed too, but it also exposes them to the same risk of corruption as the businesses they work for. If the legislature could guarantee the rights and leverage for workers as their unions do, maybe they wouldn't be necessary. But I can't see that happening, because Big Business can always buy their legislators at the expense of the workers all over again. They may be able to enforce a minimum wage, but how much further would the protections go without interference? Maybe I'm a little jaded, I think not far.
As it is, unions can't always provide thanks to odd rules and regulations working against them. My town has this law saying "after x days if an agreement between teachers and admins isn't reached, default to the administration". So once our HS teachers struck and after however long, the admins wouldn't sit down and agree to terms, so the teachers were given an ultimatum to return to work or be replaced! I was dumbfounded, what incentive is there for the admins to discuss if they automatically win? The union is there, but basically lacks any of its balancing power.
That being said, some union employees do take advantage of/abuse their protections, they must consider themselves entitled to do whatever they like when they like it, they have this sense of immunity. That's the other end of the spectrum, and equally wrong. But it's gonna happen, you're dealing with humans not saints, and some people's work ethics aren't on par with others. In contrast, my dad's been union in the IBEW for over 23 years and he and his children have been very lucky to receive the benefits of that membership. I think my dad's been on strike once since I've been alive, and he was very concerned during that time, what would happen to the family in the lapse and how the walk-out was affecting the company too. Being a union man most of his adult life, he's one of the hardest-working people I've ever known. He's virtually untouchable when rounds of lay-offs come down the pipe, he's got seniorirty over 90% of his coworkers, but he'll Never ignore a page, never gets sick or calls in and for many years had to be told to use his vacation days or lose them in the new year! He just wants to be sure he'll be taken care of if the company goes bad again and starts lashing out at its cogs and grease that keep the wheels turning. he deserves to know he'll be OK in his old age when/if he ever retires, that his years of loyalty to a single company won't be forgotten and leave him at the whim of savings.
I'd like to believe that's what most union people are about, I'm not sure if i'm right, but I think the abuses of union power are more the exception to the rule. The autoworkers might make a lot more money than a valet driving cars about the same distance, but I don't think they can be fingered as the primary problem here. Ford has fundamental issues that need to be resolved. Having to pay union workers certainly doesn't help if they're in financial dire straits, but it's a symptom and not a cause. Regardless, they'd still be facing some hard decisions, they need to turn the company around, and they'll need all the best workers they can to get it done. Now to be efficient they're laying a lot off, which is unfortunate, but losses need to be cut where they can- of course a union will never applaud job cuts. Hopefully if they regain prosperity, they'll need those hands back to manage the workload. If your workers are happy and felt taken care of, I think they'll always work better. No one wants to feel unimportant or disposable, but the fact that right now some need to be fired is a consequence of Ford's bad luck and/or business plan, not those workers' wages.
On a related note, hopefully Ford can turn it around in time to avoid GM's situation. Apparently the fiscal results are in and GM overall is $9 BILLION in the red for 2005. Ford (worldwide) made about 1.6 billion. Now 2 arenas were in the red, Jaguar and (shock) Ford NA. But thanks to Ford Europe and their other subdivisions, the company is staying afloat for the time being. With some proper leadership and good strategizing, I hope they can pull those 2 divisions into the Black as well, and if this is what they think it will take, I will have to trust them, because I have not a clue how their business works. Here's hoping.
Last edited on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 03:18 am by lil duratec
Another point of view on Ford's woes, that I happen to agree with.http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant I always find it amusing when people bash unions. Unions would not exist but for bad management. I've dealt with unions many times and the majority of their reps were pretty realistic about what could and couldn't be done. There were exceptions but there always are aren't there.
Last edited on Sun Jan 29th, 2006 06:32 pm by Codger
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
Much of the industrialised world is watching as well. It still amazes those outside the US that what used to be the strongest country in the world never even implemented a national health care program. Now that issue alone is undermining US competetiveness yet the administration is pushing free trade like some all solving mantra. The question is at what point will GM and Ford go down and what will China pay for the remnants of those companies if indeed they are even interested at that time.
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
I literally can't even comprehend that happening. It's so strange I can't begin to consider the possibility... I really hope I never see it, it would just be So wrong.
Codger wrote: It still amazes those outside the US that what used to be the strongest country in the world never even implemented a national health care program.
Cause the U.S is one of the last of the overcrowded modern world to resist socialism. Socialists needn't fear though. They'll have their way eventually unless a huge population drop occurs.
Yup, you've got far too many socialists in the US.You ought to kick out guys like General Motors chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner or pretty soon you'll have nationalised highways and minimum wage legislation as well.http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060128/AUTO01/601280315/1148/AUTO01
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
Nah. They oughta just kick me out. Since i seem to be one of the few who wanna take care of themselves. And nationalized highways actually benefit the community. Whereas healthcare only benefits those who need it or those who want something to be wrong with themselves cause they're bored. Last time i went to a doctor was just to use my health insurance so i could say i got something out of it. I had them remove 2 moles i didn't like. Something I coulda not done and saved my insurance co. who knows how much money.
Health care and welfare and such programs that are designed to help the weak by being a burden on others is just plain wrong. Its forcing me to support others who AREN'T my responsibility. In fact a large portion of those on those programs are the incompetent ones who are in my way all the time. The ancients on the road, the wic cases with loads of crap in front of me at the grocery store with their billion kids whining and crying and hurting my ears, and the rediculous idea the Americans with Disabilities Act which you can look up for yourselves. Hell, if you can't take care of yourselves and no one is gonna sponsor you, die. You're gonna die sometime anyhow. Why trouble those who don't need or want you? Cause you're scared. Thats why. Your fear will yoke the strong. Congratulations on being a leech.
I say have your healthcare program. Just let those who use it, support it. (same goes for all gov. programs)
MrV, Captain J is just another whiney Liberal. It's all good, I'm learning what to say and what not to say when I'm in Denver on business in a couple of weeks.Just been reading some of the STATE OF THE UNION EXCERPTS.""Our government has a responsibility to help provide health care for the poor and the elderly, and we are meeting that responsibility. For all Americans, we must confront the rising cost of care ... strengthen the doctor-patient relationship ... and help people afford the insurance coverage they need." Sounds like re-distribution of wealth. Bush is a communist. Who knew?
Last edited on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 12:17 am by Codger
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A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams...John Barrymore
That pansy-ass healthcare crap sucks! All politicians have to give into it for one reason or another. Either they're getting old and are scared of death so they look at it from a pussy point of view or they just do it to appeal to the weak. The weak will rule the earth. Its inevitable with how many of them there are. Socialism is necessary to control the populace but it sucks. Now. If someone were to get rid of most of the people on this planet, it might be a nice place to live.
