Actually Daniel, Dan has failed, each and every time he has done our oil changes and filter changes to get a sample. this is not due to me trying. I have left the sample kit in my car for him to use, but each time...nada - so at this point I've gone 2 changes and 4 filters with no analysis.
Needless to say I have no comparisons to offer you.
____________________ Get in, Sit down, Shut up and HANG ON!
Chelly03PZEV wrote: Actually Daniel, Dan has failed, each and every time he has done our oil changes and filter changes to get a sample. this is not due to me trying. I have left the sample kit in my car for him to use, but each time...nada - so at this point I've gone 2 changes and 4 filters with no analysis.
Needless to say I have no comparisons to offer you. lol! Hey Dan
You gotta make it easy for him. Get the Amsoil oil sampling pump so you can get the sample through the dipstick tube. TONS easier and you dont have to drain the oil until you actually need to.
Chelly03PZEV wrote: Actually Daniel, Dan has failed, each and every time he has done our oil changes and filter changes to get a sample. this is not due to me trying. I have left the sample kit in my car for him to use, but each time...nada - so at this point I've gone 2 changes and 4 filters with no analysis.
Needless to say I have no comparisons to offer you.
____________________ My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
Okay, it seems there will be no further attempts at diagnosing the issue, so I think I'll spill the beans. Sit back, get some coffee, soda or whatever cause this could potentially be a long post as I want to give the details that will help everyone understand.
Getting started, lets tackle the high sodium levels. The first thing you need to be aware of is that most oils have sodium in them as part of the additive package. It is an anti-foaming agent, but normally we are talking about just a few parts per million, usually under 10. If the sodium levels had been 10, 15 or so, this whole issue may have continued to progress undetected. In other words, the sodium was the red flag for me personally. What made it confusing and difficult to diagnose was that the supporting information wasnt there. That is to say, that with high sodium levels there should have been a few other things also jumping out at me that were not.
So, where does the sodium come from? As I mentioned, I have tested oil from all over the country from all climates and have never seen a report that showed elevated sodium due to road salt. Im not saying that its not possible or doesnt happen I am saying that in my database of oil analsysis none have exhibited this so in my mind this isnt even a consideration. Even if it were the fact we had a very warm winter and I remember only one time that road salt was used would again convince me that this wasnt the issue. If the roads had been salted day after day after day then I would have possibly given it more consideration but that just wasnt the case.
Im sure there are other sources of sodium in the oil, but the most common one by far is coolant. You may be saying "ahhhh haaa", but dont do so quickly, its more complicated than that.
The most common coolant failure point on the Grand Prix GTP is the LIM or Lower Intake Manifold. The manifold that sits below the supercharger. It has been such an issue that GM redesigned the gaskets for the LIM. But my gaskets aren't leaking.
Heres the real kicker. GM Dex-Cool doesnt contain sodium. Now that I have you pretty much confused most likely, let me give you some background.
Dex-Cool is amazingly sensative to air. Most coolants are but Dex-Cool exhibits a very problematic response to being exposed to air. It gels. That gel, about the same consistency as jello can and will harden if exposed to high temperatures. Over time it will turn into a sediment not unlike beach sand.
Knowing this I decided to drop it. However I was unable to do so when I purchased the vehicle, which proved to be the beginning of the issue. When I took the car to Florida I noticed a coolant leak (think air, not able to pressurize, etc.) at the coolant elbow underneath the supercharger. This elbow takes the coolant from the LIM and passes it over to the heater core by way of the alternator bracket. Its not a rubberized piece and can sometimes crack. Its a $5 part that I replaced after returning from Florida.
However, at that time, because you loose a great deal of coolant, I went ahead and put in Ethelyne-Glycol coolan, the green stuff, not Dex-Cool. They are compatible but I did not do a complete and thourough flush which would prove problematic down the road but also a saving grace of sorts. Guess what green coolant has in it? Yep, sodium.
At the time I replaced the elbow and the coolant I also changed the oil over to Amsoil 10W30 and flushed the tranny with Amsoil ATF. At that time, I was unable to install the by-pass unit so I was just using a single SDF29 oil filter.
After making my second trip to Florida within a month I returned home, no coolant issues I could see, no loss of coolant so to me all was good and I began to modify the car. Among my first mods was the ZZP throttle body spacer and their greatly improved gaskets. I wanted to drop inlet temps as much as I could to keep KR under control and this was one way to do that.
I installed a 180* T-stat, installed the intake and exhaust, suspension pieces and all was good, no signs of trouble. However, my first modification was hiding an issue that would not show itself until my first oil analysis. Remember, though the sodium levels were elevated, there were no other supporting elevated numbers. My first oil analysis came back and showed sodium levels at 115 ppm. THIS is a problem. My very first suspicion is that I have a coolant leak. However, lead is not elevated, potassium is at 0, and no positive test for coolant. So you should see why one would be confused. I CLEARLY have signs of a coolant leak but everything that would confirm that is not there.
Silicon is at 53 ppm on the first report. THIS is not good either, something is wrong. Experience says it should be the air filtration. So I check it. I clean and re-oil the filter, check the clamps and all ar nice and tight. Whats up with this? IF I have a coolant leak, wear should be through the roof particularly lead and iron. GM motors typically show unusually high copper levels anyway so the 50ppm there doesnt alarm me. Additive package is in tack, TBN is good and Oxidation and Nitration are good.
I decide that immediately after pulling the first oil sample I would hook up my by-pass filter system. I needed to do it anyway and I was convinced it would bring the numbers down. So I install it and continue on.
Move on down the road a little. In February, the middle of winter, my coolant temperatures spike and cause my thermostat to lock in the open position (as the thermostat I was using was designed to do). Afterwards, there is not one issue with the coolant temps. So I replace the T-stat AND the coolant temp sensor. Everything works great. The temp gauge shows a couple notches higher (used to sit just at or under 180* constantly, but is now showing a notch above, about 190* or so) and I attribute this to the fact that the new coolant sensor is more sensative not having been exposed to the heat of coolant.
On down the road, as it begins to warm up here I notice something that kinda bugs me. Im running a 180* T-stat but my coolant temps are in the area of 195 - 200*, not good. It continues to warm up and Im noticing now that my coolant temps are climbing reaching 210 even at highway speeds. I naturally think the T-stat is failing and not opening now, so I replace it. Of course, it didnt fix the issue. Im now easily reaching 210 at highway speeds and in the city Im exceeding 220. THIS is not good particularly for a supercharged car. Heat will cause KR like no other and that can and does ruin performance not to mention the added stress on the engine due to the increased temps.
About then, it is time for my second oil analysis on the car. I pull the sample and send it in fully expecting to see a large improvement. I get the results back and am fully shocked to discover not much has changed. Sodium levels, while improved are still drastically high. Furthermore silicon is still way elevated. That extra dirt in the engine is driving up iron wear and then the shocker the TBN has dropped dramatically and oxidation and nitration are off the chart. Now remember I installed the bypass unit and that required nearly 2 additional quarts of oil for the filters so my TBN at the very least should be about the same.
So now Im really concerned. Again, elevated sodium but absolutely no other indications of a coolant leak. The oxidation and nitration levels initially lead me to believe its the PCV, but I had replaced that just after getting the car. However, the PCV is inside the supercharger so I go ahead and order the kit from GM to replace all the components, the valve, the spring, the sleeve and the gasket. Though the levels of oxidation and nitration and the rate at which they increased is not indicitive of a PCV issue, normally that would cause a gradual increase, not the large jump that was seen.
Now, think for a moment and what else is associated with oxidation? If something oxidizes what does it need? Primarily air, but heat, with respect to engines is also a major factor. So I realize the oxidation-nitration, elevated silicon and sodium are showing me something. Then I factor in my increasing coolant temps. AHHH HAA! Elevated temps, theres the heat, but where is the air coming from.
I disassemble the air intake with the intention of either replacing it or going over it with a microscopic comb looking for a leak. It was then I discovered the issue. Then all the pieces came together and I realized why it wasnt obvious and why no indications of a coolant leak were being seen. Underneath the throttle body I see very clear evidence of a coolant leak right at the throttle body spacer.
Now, you may be asking what in the world is coolant doing way up there. Well, GM as part of their emissions control runs coolant through the throttle body to warm up the incoming air. Apparently when I installed the spacer and the gaskets I didnt not torque down the bolts enough, it seems that they require a tad bit more tightening than the regular paper gasket that GM uses. The gasket between the blower and the spacer is saturated with coolant, fortunately I have a spare. I replace it and tighten that sucker up but good.
Now I decide that I need to change out the coolant. Remember, the first flush I did wasnt a complete and thourough flush so there was still some Dex-Cool in the system and remember what happens to dex-cool when exposed to air. So I pull the drain plug on the radiator, NOTHING comes out. I remove the radiator cap, NOTHING comes out though I can clearly see coolant in the radiator.
After shoving a coat hanger up in the drain port, some coolant comes out but guess what comes out with it? Yep, beach sand sediment. Theres the cause of my elevated temps. The radiator has been choked with it. After a long and drawn out process I eventually get the coolant to drain, and right now I am driving with a cleaner in the radiator to get rid of that stuff as much as possible. It seems to be working because temps are returning to normal. I also have ordered a coolant filter and will install that shortly to remove any remaining junk. Im going to drain the cleaner this weekend and put another round of it in just to make sure everything is as clean as I can make it.
I have also orderd a new performance computer for the car that will turn on the dual cooling fans much sooner (at 180*) so that I can keep heat in check. That combined with the coolant filter should take care of things a little better.
So, in the larger picture, the sodium is what tipped me off to the fact there was an issue, that level of sodium is not native to Amsoil nor any other oil that I know of. But that in and of itself was not enough as it was kind of an inconclusive indication. If coolant had been actually getting into the motor then other things like iron, lead, potassium should have increased significantly along with testing positive for coolant, none of which was happening.
The increased silicon told me there was an air leak, that much I was certain of, but I did check the air intake and all was well. It wasnt until I disassembled it that I could see the evidence of the coolant leak.
The oxidation and nitration were really secondary. They were a result of the increased temps, that was in turn caused by 1.) the system not being able to pressurize because of the gasket leak, which in turn caused 2.) the remaining dex-cool in the coolant to turn to gel and then harden into sediment and that in turn caused 3.) the sediment to collect in and then clog up the radiator further exhaborating the issue. The throttle body gasked was covered in the dex-cool gel some of which had hardened there as well.
Because the leak was at the opening of the supercharger the heat was undoubtedly evaporating the moisture coming in which is why there was not positive coolant indication and thus no increased wear or potassium. What did increase the iron and aluminum was the air leak itself allowing in unfiltered air and thus the silicon number was greatly elevated.
I was forced, after only 15k miles on the oil, to change it. I switched over to Series 2000 0W-30 and installed a EaO15 and EaOBP90 filters. I should be due for another oil analysis in about a month or two and will have conclusive proof then. My coolant filter should be here this weekend, the new computer (ECU) will be here on monday. I am also going to install a new oil pump bypass spring to increase the oil pressure just a little.
So, there ya go. If I had to hand out a prize to someone it would have to go to RPIJG, he mentioned the leak after the air filter, which was actually what it was. Whether or not he would have looked at the throttle body is another matter. I know it wasnt first on my list and Im used to looking at these things. PFF, you were on track, you read the oxidation and nitration as most would, but in this case the oxidation and nitration levels were a secondary issue, the result of the coolant issue.
Had it not been for the green ethelyne-glycol coolant I put in the system I might have not ever caught this. Ethelyne glycol does have sodium in it. If I had just replaced with dex-cool it is very likely this issue would have gotten much worse and possibly have cause much more trouble and probably the expensive type.
Without the second oil analysis I do not think I would have ever found the issue. But when the oil did not show the response it should have to two additional quars of oil and a filter system that should have significantly reduced all wear numbers. You may be asking well why didnt it.
Remember, and oil analysis is a 'sample' of the oil. It is represenative of what is in the oil but doesnt show everything. My silicon dropped from 53 ppm to 46 ppm. That tells me that there is so much dirt getting into the motor that the filtration was unable, even with its greatly enhanced filtration capability to combat all that the motor was taking in. Furthermore, the oil analysis shows what suspended in the oil, it does not show what has been pulled out by the filters.
However, notice this and THIS is what shows you the filter system WAS doing its job. Wear numbers are NOT in line with what they should be with that kind of dirt in the engine. Had the bypass system not been there then my iron and aluminum and possible copper would have been off the chart.
So there you have it. This was by far my toughest diagnosis with oil analysis to date. I surely wont soon forget it.
Last edited on Fri Jun 2nd, 2006 03:04 pm by SyntheticShield
____________________ My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
