Subject: Diagnose a issue from oil analysis
Patient: 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Modifications:
1. 4" intake with Amsoil TS-191 Foam Air Filter, open cone.
2. 3" exhaust with resonator and converter removed.
3. 180* drilled (2 1/8" bypass holes) T-Stat
4. ZZP Throttle Body spacer (isolates throttle body from supercharger to reduce intake temps).
5. GMPP Oversized front and rear sway bars.
6. GMPP strut tower brace.
Oil Analysis symptoms:
1. Elevated Sodium levels, several times higher than normal (71 ppm).
2. Elevated, nearly abnormal silicon levels (46 ppm).
3. Iron contamination increasing (20 ppm).
4. Additive package is normal.
5. Coolant test is negative.
6. TBN dropped approx. 30% from last report. from 6.28 to 4.76 over the course of 8,000 miles.
7. Oxidation and Nitration WAY out of balance; Oxidation = 29.0, Nitration = 19.0. Oxidation and Nitration should typically be within a couple points of each other.
8. Viscosity is normal but elevated from last report.
The oil being used: Amsoil ATM 10W-30
Total miles on oil: 15, 717 at sample time
Okay, here's the deal. I know what the problem is, have corrected it thanks to the information from the oil analysis. Your job is to use the above information to tell me what the issue was. Everything you need to diagnose the issue is listed, but not all the information listed is a clue to the issue.
So, are you up to it? Think you can accurately diagnose the issue? Here's your chance to see just how good of a troubleshooter you are. Try to avoid just throwing out guesses, read the oil analysis information and come up with a diagnosis.
I wont give any hints just yet, so just post your diagnosis, corrective action and how you came to that conclusion.
Good Luck.
____________________ My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
I'm going to guess you have a leak somewhere after your air filter on the intake side.
Reasons, silicon is primarily introduced into the engine from sand and dirt penetration. And I'm making an assumption that the sodium is probably from any winter driving that may have been done, salt on the roads, same principal as the sand above. As the sand and dirt made the way into the engine, they would have caused a small amount of additional wear on the block which is probably iron, though I could be wrong about that. The increased amount of sodium in the oil would mess up the TBN since most likely it would increase the appearance of the common ion effect of the oil. Thereby skewing the testing results. The differing O-tion and N-tion numbers probably has to do with the increased amount of sodium also, as sodium easily undergoes oxidation reactions with several of the other elements.
Okay, you're going to have to xplaine something to me. How in the world do you get sodium in your oil from winter driving, i.e., road salts and such? I have tested a lot of cars, winter and summer and have never seen increased sodium levels from that.
Im not saying it isnt possible, just curious as to how you see that getting in the motor. Ive heard others attribute increased sodium to that, but Ive never seen it or been able to figure out how the salt gets from the road to the inside of the motor. The intake would be my only guess but that would mean it would have to survive the air filter, then the combustion process and then get past the rings and such into the oil.
____________________ My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
7. Oxidation and Nitration WAY out of balance; Oxidation = 29.0, Nitration = 19.0. Oxidation and Nitration should typically be within a couple points of each other.
That leads me to blowby.
#7 also is what leads me to believe the PCV is bad.
____________________ Project FocusFast
'06 ZX3- Intake, exhaust, mount
'01 ZX3- Salvaged, SOLD
'01 ZX3- Repo'd several years ago
'80 RX7- RB Intake, RB header. Loud, slow, fun.
I'd say the same way you got the sand in there, if the intake was leaking as was my explanation for increased silicon, then by the same method could you see an increase of road salt getting into the intake by the same method, I know on the focus, if I open the hood in the winter there is a nice thick layer of salt everywhere on the engine. The salt itself is unlikely to make it into the intake but the salt in it's solvated form, with water, is definitely capable of making it in, once inside, the combustion temperature is likely to boil off the water vapor without much problem, but the sodium chloride is likely to deposit in the chamber, and then be readsorbed by the oil. The chloride values also would likely drive down the TBN because of the increased acidic load. SyntheticShield wrote: Okay, you're going to have to xplaine something to me. How in the world do you get sodium in your oil from winter driving, i.e., road salts and such? I have tested a lot of cars, winter and summer and have never seen increased sodium levels from that.
Im not saying it isnt possible, just curious as to how you see that getting in the motor. Ive heard others attribute increased sodium to that, but Ive never seen it or been able to figure out how the salt gets from the road to the inside of the motor. The intake would be my only guess but that would mean it would have to survive the air filter, then the combustion process and then get past the rings and such into the oil.
Okay, cool. That makes sense. I think the kink that is going play into this is we had a very warm winter and I recall only one time they used salt on the roads here and if I remember correctly it was shortly after I pulled my first oil analysis. I ALWAYS go and wash my car after they salt/sand the roads. And if it were to where I could yank out the motor in just a few minutes Id pull up to a car wash and power wash everything and put it back in.
Im not saying you are wrong or right (remember, I know what the problem was and how it was fixed), Im just saying that because of the warm winter and how little salt/sand was used, increased sodium would not have made me immediately think of road salt.
Though, now that you have explained it, I can definately see the chlorine part of sodium being a very major issue to TBN, I had not considered that before. I'll definately have to keep that in mind, particularly for my customers in the northeast and other areas that have strong winters and are in areas in which road salts are used frequently. I have several customers in such areas and will have to keep an eye out for that when they have oil analysis done.
What are you, some kind of chemist or something?
Okay, anyone have any other diagnosis? Come on, get in on the fun, this is exciting stuff.
____________________ My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
Elevated sodium levels = high blood / oil pressure. Stop the engine from ingesting canned soups, canned veges, chips, pretzels, ham, etc. The problem will likely clear up within a couple of months.
____________________ If you can't read this, you're illiterate.
Is there any doubt why Mr. V is the funniest person around?
Mr. Versatile wrote: Elevated sodium levels = high blood / oil pressure. Stop the engine from ingesting canned soups, canned veges, chips, pretzels, ham, etc. The problem will likely clear up within a couple of months.
Mr. Versatile wrote: Elevated sodium levels = high blood / oil pressure. Stop the engine from ingesting canned soups, canned veges, chips, pretzels, ham, etc. The problem will likely clear up within a couple of months.
____________________ My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
Just to expand on the salt intake situation - salt becomes an extremely fine powder as the days move on in the winter, warm or not, the salt is there. Trucks drive by or even just every day driving and the fine particles stay suspended in the air longer and are fine enough to penetrate.
Just an observation from being a New Englander with a car that gets dipped and pelted by salt each winter.
____________________ Get in, Sit down, Shut up and HANG ON!
Chelly, have you done an oil analysis in the winter time and one in the summer to see if there is a noticeable difference in the sodium concentration in the oil?
I dont doubt the salt is there, my curiosity has been just how it gets in the motor, then on top of that survives all the filtration to stay suspended in the oil.
Chelly03PZEV wrote: Just to expand on the salt intake situation - salt becomes an extremely fine powder as the days move on in the winter, warm or not, the salt is there. Trucks drive by or even just every day driving and the fine particles stay suspended in the air longer and are fine enough to penetrate.
Just an observation from being a New Englander with a car that gets dipped and pelted by salt each winter.
____________________ My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
Oh, I need to add that at least around here, after they use road salt and the roads clear and dry up they will send out the street sweepers to clean things up.
____________________ My car is a synner! It uses Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants.
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it
and other areas that have strong winters and are in areas in which road salts are used frequently. I have several customers in such areas and will have to keep an eye out for that when they have oil analysis done.
